BBC licence fee to be abolished in 2027 and funding frozen

[Stuart]

I won't deny I'd laugh a bit if the licence fee got replaced by taxation, then all the people who've spent years campaigning for it to be abolished find themselves with no choice but to pay for the BBC whether they owna TV or use their services or not at least partly as a result of their campaigning.

Many people wouldn't be laughing, though.  My Dad hasn't even owned a TV for many years, so why should he pay for something he can't receive?

You have to give people the ability to opt out. 

I can't see subscription working either, as it would mean BBC services would have to be scrambled, together with all the technology to unscramble them in the domestic environment.  The implication would then be that people would simply watch unscrambled FTA services without any requirement for a TVL.  I doubt the BBC would survive such a move.

[Brekkie]

I won't deny I'd laugh a bit if the licence fee got replaced by taxation, then all the people who've spent years campaigning for it to be abolished find themselves with no choice but to pay for the BBC whether they owna TV or use their services or not at least partly as a result of their campaigning.

Many people wouldn't be laughing, though.  My Dad hasn't even owned a TV for many years, so why should he pay for something he can't receive?

Because he benefits from the BBC even if he doesn't use it directly.

[Stuart]

Many people wouldn't be laughing, though.  My Dad hasn't even owned a TV for many years, so why should he pay for something he can't receive?

Because he benefits from the BBC even if he doesn't use it directly.

I don't understand your point @Brekkie.  How does he 'benefit from the BBC' without a TV set? What service are they providing which he is using without knowing?

[James2001]

You pay for countless things you don't use with your taxes, does your dad spend all the time moaning about that or demanding "opt outs" for those things? What other things should we "opt out" of paying for if we don't use? Benefits, the NHS, schools, libraries etc.? One of the things about living in society is to contribute towards things for the greater good even if you don't use them yourself.

[Stuart]

You pay for countless things you don't use with your taxes, does your dad spend all the time moaning about that?

That's an odd reply. I didn't say he 'moaned' about anything. But why would he want to pay for something he has no facility to receive.

People without a car don't pay road tax or fuel duty. People without a TV wouldn't expect to see a payment for a TVL on their Council Tax bill.

[natashajacobs]

You pay for countless things you don't use with your taxes, does your dad spend all the time moaning about that?

That's an odd reply. I didn't say he 'moaned' about anything. But why would he want to pay for something he has no facility to receive.

People without a car don't pay road tax or fuel duty. People without a TV wouldn't expect to see a payment for a TVL on their Council Tax bill.

People who don’t take the train still subsidise the railways and the new trains they are rolling out. People who don’t need the NHS still subsidise life saving cardiovascular surgery. People who don’t have kids pay for education. People who don’t use welfare still pay for welfare. I could go on… I think the licence fee has to become part of general taxation for the core PSB like News and Bitesize as they are core public services in the same way as many of those I describe above.

[Stuart]

People who don’t take the train still subsidise the railways and the new trains they are rolling out. People who don’t need the NHS still subsidise life saving cardiovascular surgery. People who don’t have kids pay for education. People who don’t use welfare still pay for welfare. I could go on… I think the licence fee has to become part of general taxation for the core PSB like News and Bitesize as they are core public services in the same way as many of those I describe above.

But they are paid from Income Tax/NI/VAT etc which is general taxation. You don't get to choose how it's spent, and most people don't care about finding out.

Other bespoke taxes are user specific. There is a vast difference between the two.

[Matrix]

My instinct is that going down the US route and leaving things to ‘the market’ is probably not where we want to head, for a variety of reasons.

Politically, the license fee has been a long running sore. One need only look at the various (and there’s many) reports over the last 60 years which have proposed ever more inventive funding models. That said, I think it comes back to this point: if you want a public service broadcaster, you have to pay for it. Now, sure, question the size and scale - but fundamentally I think some form of taxation is probably the better option.

[Stuart]

I think it comes back to this point: if you want a public service broadcaster, you have to pay for it. Now, sure, question the size and scale - but fundamentally I think some form of taxation is probably the better option.

It's already funded through taxation, but changing a 'besoke tax for users' to a general tax, just removes an option for the public.

You may as well start saying that supermarkets provide a 'public service', and start adding that on to general taxation. You're then on a very slippery slope to state control of many things.

I happen to support the TVL, it's cheap for what I get in return.

However, 2m households don't watch/record any live TV broadcasts, so you're pushing a cost onto them which they have made a conscious lifestyle decision not to use.

I doubt the Government would go down that route anyway.

[Matrix]

I think it comes back to this point: if you want a public service broadcaster, you have to pay for it. Now, sure, question the size and scale - but fundamentally I think some form of taxation is probably the better option.

It's already funded through taxation, but changing a 'besoke tax for users' to a general tax, just removes an option for the public.

You may as well start saying that supermarkets provide a 'public service', and start adding that on to general taxation. You're then on a very slippery slope to state control of many things.

I happen to support the TVL, it's cheap for what I get in return.

However, 2m households don't watch/record any live TV broadcasts, so you're pushing a cost onto them which they have made a conscious lifestyle decision not to use.

I doubt the Government would go down that route anyway.

I just don’t see how else you square the circle, to use that awful metaphor. 

The concept of a license fee is a good one but when you have an opt-in (as it is) you essentially make PSB an optional extra. Unless it’s part of a core offer around culture, media, and the arts I just don’t see how you don’t end up back in this space continually. 

For what it’s worth, I think the longer there isn’t some form of settlement the more likely the BBC are to start stripping back to very core services - which is rather what I suspect the government are aiming for.

[Stuart]

I just don’t see how else you square the circle, to use that awful metaphor. 

The concept of a license fee is a good one but when you have an opt-in (as it is) you essentially make PSB an optional extra. Unless it’s part of a core offer around culture, media, and the arts I just don’t see how you don’t end up back in this space continually. 

For what it’s worth, I think the longer there isn’t some form of settlement the more likely the BBC are to start stripping back to very core services - which is rather what I suspect the government are aiming for.

I honestly think that the current funding model works, but the solution needs to be changing who decides the TVL rate and annual increases.

Otherwise, as you say, the BBC will be forced to strip back even further over time, and we'll be left with a rump service which could simply be closed down on the basis that doesn't provide anything of value.

They could go down the advertising route, as used by other PSBs, but really you're just diluting the available revenue source.

[natashajacobs]

People who don’t take the train still subsidise the railways and the new trains they are rolling out. People who don’t need the NHS still subsidise life saving cardiovascular surgery. People who don’t have kids pay for education. People who don’t use welfare still pay for welfare. I could go on… I think the licence fee has to become part of general taxation for the core PSB like News and Bitesize as they are core public services in the same way as many of those I describe above.

But they are paid from Income Tax/NI/VAT etc which is general taxation. You don't get to choose how it's spent, and most people don't care about finding out.

Other bespoke taxes are user specific. There is a vast difference between the two.

Other than the licence fee not sure what other ‘user specific’ taxes you mean? The TV licence is required for all live TV so if people want to watch any of this then they are taxed for the BBC whether they like it or not. It’s not a BBC specific tax. Indeed you could consume all of their radio output and not pay a penny if you wished. It’s time that the licence fee being ‘paying for a service’ idea is knocked on the head imo. It’s a contribution to PSB media.

[Stuart]

But they are paid from Income Tax/NI/VAT etc which is general taxation. You don't get to choose how it's spent, and most people don't care about finding out.

Other bespoke taxes are user specific. There is a vast difference between the two.

Other than the licence fee not sure what other ‘user specific’ taxes you mean? The TV licence is required for all live TV so if people want to watch any of this then they are taxed for the BBC whether they like it or not. It’s not a BBC specific tax. Indeed you could consume all of their radio output and not pay a penny if you wished. It’s time that the licence fee being ‘paying for a service’ idea is knocked on the head imo. It’s a contribution to PSB media.

I didn't suggest that the TVL is BBC specific. I deliberately stated that it was for watching/recording live TV broadcasts.

Other examples of 'user specific taxes' are:

• Vehicle Excise Duty  (you need a vehicle)
  
• Fuel Duty  (you need to be filling up a vehicle)
  
• Customs Duties  (you need to be entering the UK with goods from abroad)
  
• Air Passenger Duty  (you need to be travelling on an airline)
  
• Tobacco Products Duty (you need to be smoking)
  
• Alcohol Duty  (you need to be buying alcohol)
  

You can make a lifestyle choice not to fall within the criteria which requires you to pay any of those.  I support the TVL as it stands, but you cannot force it upon people who don't meet the criteria by choice.

[telebox2001]

If you want a user-specific tax like the examples above, then there is an obvious option - to put a levy on anything able to pick up a BBC service. Whether that be a television, radio, smartphone, computer, tablet, outboard streaming stick... if it can access a BBC service in some way, stick a levy on it and use that to fund the BBC.

[natashajacobs]

Other than the licence fee not sure what other ‘user specific’ taxes you mean? The TV licence is required for all live TV so if people want to watch any of this then they are taxed for the BBC whether they like it or not. It’s not a BBC specific tax. Indeed you could consume all of their radio output and not pay a penny if you wished. It’s time that the licence fee being ‘paying for a service’ idea is knocked on the head imo. It’s a contribution to PSB media.

I didn't suggest that the TVL is BBC specific. I deliberately stated that it was for watching/recording live TV broadcasts.

Other examples of 'user specific taxes' are:

• Vehicle Excise Duty  (you need a vehicle)
  
• Fuel Duty  (you need to be filling up a vehicle)
  
• Customs Duties  (you need to be entering the UK with goods from abroad)
  
• Air Passenger Duty  (you need to be travelling on an airline)
  
• Tobacco Products Duty (you need to be smoking)
  
• Alcohol Duty  (you need to be buying alcohol)
  

You can make a lifestyle choice not to fall within the criteria which requires you to pay any of those.  I support the TVL as it stands, but you cannot force it upon people who don't meet the criteria by choice.

As the licence fee stands then yes of course you have to be doing a specific thing to pay it. But my point was that, in the future, this might not be so. If it was funded from a levy on general taxation then it would be just like all the other public services that we don’t use personally.