Plans for BBC One HD

[James2001]

BBC One SD is no longer on Virgin Media.

There's still SD versions in the 800s.

[Orry Verducci]

Isn't the version of PSB3 in the Channel Islands the 'Crystal Palace' version, but with ITV London HD chopped out of the SI, thus making it more or less impossible to receive on domestic spec receivers?

I'm trying (so far unsuccessfully) to confirm this, by getting somebody in the neighbouring part of France who can receive Fremont Point to record a full mux dump.

ITV HD is definitely on the PSB 3 mux from Fremont Point as they're distributed one of the existing regional variations of the mux. If a CI specific variant of PSB 3 was coded I imagine they would put ITV HD Channel on it instead of dropping the channel entirely.

All they've done is drop the ITV HD channel from the PAT/NIT tables in the Channel Islands SI data stream so that domestic receivers can't receive the service.

[Markymark]

Isn't the version of PSB3 in the Channel Islands the 'Crystal Palace' version, but with ITV London HD chopped out of the SI, thus making it more or less impossible to receive on domestic spec receivers?

I'm trying (so far unsuccessfully) to confirm this, by getting somebody in the neighbouring part of France who can receive Fremont Point to record a full mux dump.

ITV HD is definitely on the PSB 3 mux from Fremont Point as they're distributed one of the existing regional variations of the mux. If a CI specific variant of PSB 3 was coded I imagine they would put ITV HD Channel on it instead of dropping the channel entirely.

All they've done is drop the ITV HD channel from the PAT/NIT tables in the Channel Islands SI data stream so that domestic receivers can't receive the service.

This is what will be interesting when the extra PSB3 streams do finally appear. Will there be one for the CIs, or will they just be fed the 'South West' PSB3 stream (BBC 1 South West, and ITV West(SW), (which may well also be chopped out in the SI too)?

Other interesting teeny-weeny PSB 3 regions will be 'South Lakeland' (BBC North West, ITV Border Scotland) and Selkirk/Caldbeck-Scot (BBC 1 Scotland, and ITV Border-Scotland)

All the above might be deemed 'uneconomic'

[mrwish]

Isn't the version of PSB3 in the Channel Islands the 'Crystal Palace' version, but with ITV London HD chopped out of the SI, thus making it more or less impossible to receive on domestic spec receivers?

I'm trying (so far unsuccessfully) to confirm this, by getting somebody in the neighbouring part of France who can receive Fremont Point to record a full mux dump.

ITV HD is definitely on the PSB 3 mux from Fremont Point as they're distributed one of the existing regional variations of the mux. If a CI specific variant of PSB 3 was coded I imagine they would put ITV HD Channel on it instead of dropping the channel entirely.

All they've done is drop the ITV HD channel from the PAT/NIT tables in the Channel Islands SI data stream so that domestic receivers can't receive the service.

It's presumably much more intensive/expensive to actually replace the Video/Audio PES etc with null packets, when only "enthusiasts" with non-Freeview equipment would be able to view ITV London HD by manually mapping the PIDs anyway?

Here in N Gloucestershire we have the special version of DVB-T PSB2, with ITV West SD. Everything other than that is filtered (in this case it has to be, because of the DVB-T mode used), but the PAT/NIT filtering hasn't ever been updated so E4+1 and the Accessible TV Guide appear, even though none of the PIDs relating to them exist in the mux.

On a slightly related note, that special PSB2 would be a nice contender to switch to DVB-T2 with a West version of PSB3 once these changes happen, to give BBC One West as well as ITV West. The large bitrate fluctuations would probably mean it would need its own specific version though (rather than Mendip's) to meet the bandwidth restrictions of the transmission mode required, so it'll never happen!

[Orry Verducci]

This is what will be interesting when the extra PSB3 streams do finally appear. Will there be one for the CIs, or will they just be fed the 'South West' PSB3 stream (BBC 1 South West, and ITV West(SW), (which may well also be chopped out in the SI too)?

Other interesting teeny-weeny PSB 3 regions will be 'South Lakeland' (BBC North West, ITV Border Scotland) and Selkirk/Caldbeck-Scot (BBC 1 Scotland, and ITV Border-Scotland)

All the above might be deemed 'uneconomic'

This raises the question - what version of PSB 3 does Selkirk/Caldbeck currently transmit?

Presumably it's a Scottish variant of the mux so that viewers receive the BBC's Scottish services, but to the best of my knowledge there's only one version of the mux which carries STV HD Glasgow. So do viewers there get STV HD, or have they dropped it from the SI like they have in the Channel Islands? Or is there a variant we don't know about with the correct services (BBC Scotland/ITV Border)?

If anyone knows I'd be interested to find out.

[IanJRedman]

Surely the number must be very small now?

You'd think so, but I still personally know one person who had an old, SD Sky+ box in the living room when I last visited, relatively recently. They do exist. But yes, the number must be quite small, and you can't keep all the SD simulcasts around forever.

[Markymark]

This is what will be interesting when the extra PSB3 streams do finally appear. Will there be one for the CIs, or will they just be fed the 'South West' PSB3 stream (BBC 1 South West, and ITV West(SW), (which may well also be chopped out in the SI too)?

Other interesting teeny-weeny PSB 3 regions will be 'South Lakeland' (BBC North West, ITV Border Scotland) and Selkirk/Caldbeck-Scot (BBC 1 Scotland, and ITV Border-Scotland)

All the above might be deemed 'uneconomic'

This raises the question - what version of PSB 3 does Selkirk/Caldbeck currently transmit?

Presumably it's a Scottish variant of the mux so that viewers receive the BBC's Scottish services, but to the best of my knowledge there's only one version of the mux which carries STV HD Glasgow. So do viewers there get STV HD, or have they dropped it from the SI like they have in the Channel Islands? Or is there a variant we don't know about with the correct services (BBC Scotland/ITV Border)?

If anyone knows I'd be interested to find out.

And me ! I'd guess at BBC Scotland HD, and ITV Granada HD ? (Because STV have no claim to either Caldbeck or Selkirk, they are 'ITV PLC' sites ?

There's also arguably a case now of returning the South Lakeland transmitters to 'Granada'. They were only allocated to Border in 1982, to make the Border franchise more financially viable. It doesn't matter now !

[mrwish]

This is what will be interesting when the extra PSB3 streams do finally appear. Will there be one for the CIs, or will they just be fed the 'South West' PSB3 stream (BBC 1 South West, and ITV West(SW), (which may well also be chopped out in the SI too)?

Other interesting teeny-weeny PSB 3 regions will be 'South Lakeland' (BBC North West, ITV Border Scotland) and Selkirk/Caldbeck-Scot (BBC 1 Scotland, and ITV Border-Scotland)

All the above might be deemed 'uneconomic'

This raises the question - what version of PSB 3 does Selkirk/Caldbeck currently transmit?

Presumably it's a Scottish variant of the mux so that viewers receive the BBC's Scottish services, but to the best of my knowledge there's only one version of the mux which carries STV HD Glasgow. So do viewers there get STV HD, or have they dropped it from the SI like they have in the Channel Islands? Or is there a variant we don't know about with the correct services (BBC Scotland/ITV Border)?

If anyone knows I'd be interested to find out.

The NIT and SDT data on the satellite backup shows a version of PSB3 that carries the Scottish versions of the BBC channels, plus a version of ITV HD with the SID 17659 (0x44FB) which is a slightly different SID to the version of ITV Granada HD carried on other out-of-region PSB3 muxes (17609). This is listed under the networks labelled "West Borders" and "East Borders".

Code:

04 00 42 49
      
      
      
        44 FB FC 67 45 40 FC 69 44 BC FC 65 44 40 FC 66
        45 00 FC 68 43 3C FC 6C 46 FC FC CC 4E C0 FC 42
        4F 20 FC 38

Code:

66 70 2E 62 62 63 2E 63 6F 2E 75 6B
      
      
      
        F7
      
    
    
      
      
        66 70 2E 62 62 63 2E 63 6F 2E 75 6B
      
      
      
        F7
      
    
    
      
      
        66 70 2E 62 62 63 2E 63 6F 2E 75 6B
      
      
      
        F7
      
    
    
      
      
        77 77 77 2E 69 74 76 2E 63 6F 6D
      
      
      
        F7
      
    
    
      
      
        77 77 77 2E 63 68 61 6E 6E 65 6C 34 2E 63 6F 6D
      
      
      
        F7
      
    
    
      
      
        77 77 77 2E 66 69 76 65 2E 74 76
      
      
      
        F7
      
    
    
      
      
        66 70 2E 62 62 63 2E 63 6F 2E 75 6B
      
      
      
        F7
      
    
    
      
      
        77 77 77 2E 74 62 6E 75 6B 2E 6F 72 67
      
    
    
      
      
        77 77 77 2E 66 69 76 65 2E 74 76

It also has no BBC Three HD like the other Scottish regions (because of BBC Scotland HD).

[hermes]

The Selkirk transmitter has the Scottish BBC channels in both SD and HD, with ITV Border Scotland in SD and ITV Granada in HD. This confuses me a lot when I drive from Manchester to the Scottish Borders and receive Granada in both locations!

[Brekkie]

If Freeview ever gets around to any kind of full T2/HD changeover I guess rather than the BBC and ITV having separate muxes having one regionalised mux and the rest nationalised would make sense.

[Pete]

Surely the number must be very small now?

You'd think so, but I still personally know one person who had an old, SD Sky+ box in the living room when I last visited, relatively recently. They do exist. But yes, the number must be quite small, and you can't keep all the SD simulcasts around forever.

Given the numbers involved you wonder if the cost of simply giving each person a voucher to update their box would be cheaper than maintaining the SD infrastructure.

That said, a relative of mine did have an original SD Freesat box until I insisted they replace with an HD one in (checks Amazon) 2018. They got theirs via the original digital switchover scheme.

[Markymark]

Given the numbers involved you wonder if the cost of simply giving each person a voucher to update their box would be cheaper than maintaining the SD infrastructure.

Much the same used to get said about 405 line viewers in the 80s!

[CCFG]

Given the numbers involved you wonder if the cost of simply giving each person a voucher to update their box would be cheaper than maintaining the SD infrastructure.

Much the same used to get said about 405 line viewers in the 80s!

And I suspect much the same is also being said for DVB-T only users.

[i.h]

Given the numbers involved you wonder if the cost of simply giving each person a voucher to update their box would be cheaper than maintaining the SD infrastructure.

Much the same used to get said about 405 line viewers in the 80s!

And I suspect much the same is also being said for DVB-T only users.

I'd imagine that there's still a number of those, though. It took a while for T2 tuners to percolate down to less-than-flagship sets. I still have (and use) a supermarket special that is DVB-T only, though I do indeed have Freesat and Freeview boxes connected to it

[Keith]

Much the same used to get said about 405 line viewers in the 80s!

And I suspect much the same is also being said for DVB-T only users.

I'd imagine that there's still a number of those, though. It took a while for T2 tuners to percolate down to less-than-flagship sets. I still have (and use) a supermarket special that is DVB-T only, though I do indeed have Freesat and Freeview boxes connected to it

I think there would be a reasonable case for all multiplexes apart from PSB1 and PSB2 to be switched over to DVB-T2 in the near future. This is particularly needed with COM7 set to close later this year, which some HD channels are currently on.

Then further down the line just one PSB mux (e.g. PSB1) could be kept as DVB-T, with just the pre-DSO channels too provide a basic legacy service.