BBC 4 HD, & Cbeebies HD to move to PSB3

[nwtv2003]

Unfortunately, like with a lot of Freeview, the word compression springs to mind.

I really wish they would take the opportunity to switch the remaining multiplexes to HD or at least one that isn’t dependent on MPEG2 encoding.

[Markymark]

If BBC 4 and CBBC close then it's not going to happen for a few years anyway, and of course this move was planned a long time before that announcement. 

If it does happen I imagine they'll combine BBC Three and Cbeebies and therefore create space for News HD

I’m not technical in the slightest but surely a HD stream requires more bandwidth than a SD feed?

Everything else being equal yes. However MPEG 2 (which is used for most Freeview SD channels) is a coding system from the 1980s, and is not very bandwidth efficient, MPEG4 is used for HD, (in itself pretty old too) Also DVB-T2 which hosts UK HD channels is more efficient than DVB-T, used for most of the SD channels

In short we need to ditch DVB-T and MPEG 2 ASAP

[technologist]

In short we need to ditch DVB-T and MPEG 2 ASAP

A great missed opportunity that the Vaizey plan was not carried out
Viz mandating of PSB to emit HD ( hence T2 AVC AAC ) ONLY
At 700 MHz clearance …..

[Aplus1]

However MPEG 2 (which is used for most Freeview SD channels) is a coding system from the 1980s, and is not very bandwidth efficient,

Late 90's, surely? And MPEG2 encoders continue to improve even today, squeezing more channels into less bandwidth than ever before.

In short we need to ditch DVB-T and MPEG 2 ASAP

That's millions of set top boxes and televisions you're consigning to the scrap heap though... on top of the millions more already scrapped at DSO. Not very environmentally efficient.

[Newshound47]

Would be very difficult to explain to the public which boxes and TV would stop working and what ones won’t.

[Keith]

Would be very difficult to explain to the public which boxes and TV would stop working and what ones won’t.

Not really, in my opinion. Simply "Do you have Freeview and are you able to watch BBC One HD on channel 101?". If yes to the first part and no to the second, then you'll be affected.

In short we need to ditch DVB-T and MPEG 2 ASAP

That's millions of set top boxes and televisions you're consigning to the scrap heap though... on top of the millions more already scrapped at DSO. Not very environmentally efficient.

I suspect the number of devices aren't affected aren't as high as five years ago. Also they could do it one multiplex at a time, and leave PSB1 and PSB2 unconverted using DVB-T to allow those with older devices some channels.

[Markymark]

However MPEG 2 (which is used for most Freeview SD channels) is a coding system from the 1980s, and is not very bandwidth efficient,

Late 90's, surely? And MPEG2 encoders continue to improve even today, squeezing more channels into less bandwidth than ever before.

In short we need to ditch DVB-T and MPEG 2 ASAP

That's millions of set top boxes and televisions you're consigning to the scrap heap though... on top of the millions more already scrapped at DSO. Not very environmentally efficient.

You can trace the origins of MPEG 2 back to 1988.

Virtually no one's TV had to be scrapped at DSO, if any were then more fool them!

All that was rendered useless at DSO were the On Digital boxes because of the switch from 2k to 8k modulation.

[Brekkie]

HD-DVB2 has been standard for Freeview for six years now.  Yes, there will be older equipment around but a set top box can sort that for very little cost now, and frankly in that time many people will have been expected to update their phones two or three times anyway.

We're just long overdue phasing out DVB-T channels and therefore SD simulcasts.  There could be an argument for keeping one mux SD for a short cross over period for the PSB channels and BBC, but frankly I think it's time to make the jump.

Current mux line up here: http://www.xhxf.uk/timeshares/
Bitrate guide here (click on each mux): https://www.digitalbitrate.com/dtv.php?m...=9&lang=en

Roughly speaking you could get 8 HD channels on a mux, or 6 HD and 6 SD channels (roughly 3 SD to 1 HD channel), or therefore 4 HD and 12 SD channels.    I think having a rule that 75% of a PSB mux space (50% of channels) must be HD and 50% of a COM mux space (so 25% of channels) must be HD would be reasonable and when you consider the simulcasts that would be removed it should accomodate the existing Freeview line up across 6 muxes easily, if not 5, with at least 24 HD channels (30 if PSB3 is retained). 


PSB1 - (currently BBC SD) - BBC1/2/3/4/News in HD (along with CBBC/CBeebies).  Parliament, Red Button, BBC Alba probably in SD.  It can also host S4C in Wales and BBC Scotland in HD. 
PSB2 - (ITV/C4) - the line up as now, but with ITV, C4, C5 and probably three digital channels in HD, rest in SD.
PSB3 - either continues to give more space for channels in HD (could cover the rest of the core ITV/C4 channels), or closes if reducing the spectrum required is needed.
COM4/5/6 - switch to the T2 standard, switch 4 of their channels to HD, rest (approx 12) in SD.


Currently there are 80 (+2 in Scotland) SD channel streams across the PSB and COM4-7 muxes and 10 HD streams, all of which have SD simulcasts.    My plan would allow for 24-30 HD channels and 48-54 SD channels, so six muxes would comfortably accomodate all channels, with an extra 20now in HD.   If the local mux was retained and upgraded to HD I think it could probably accomodate 2 HD and 3-4 SD channels, but really it's time to admit there is no such thing as "Local TV" and accomodate the Great! channels on the national muxes.

However it wouldn't compromise too much to squeeze an extra 8 SD channels on the COM muxes in order to reduce to a 5 mux solution (with 24 HD channels) and perhaps retaining the 6th mux in the short term to carry the PSB channels in SD DVB-T would set Freeview up well and feel like it's set up for the next decade rather than the noughties.    I guess too that 6th mux could possibly be used for 4K in the future too, and then the whole process kind of starts again.

[Aplus1]

You can trace the origins of MPEG 2 back to 1988.

Virtually no one's TV had to be scrapped at DSO, if any were then more fool them!

All that was rendered useless at DSO were the On Digital boxes because of the switch from 2k to 8k modulation.

You can trace the origins of anything back to any arbitrary date, but MPEG-2 was not generally available in silicon until at least 1996/1997 kind of time. Even MPEG-1 was only starting to become available in the early 90s, with consumer disc formats like Video CD still very much 'to be finalised' at launch. I seem to remember that one of the US digital satellite platforms of the mid-90s launched with MPEG-1 because MPEG-2 was not ready, also.

There were plenty of IDTVs which could only handle 2K - Ofcom numbered it as at least 75,000, from major makers like Panasonic, Hitachi, Sony, Toshiba, etc. - and it wasn't just ONdigital boxes as other early set top boxes like the Pace DTVA were also affected. Several million boxes all becoming ewaste overnight. Not good.

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Would be very difficult to explain to the public which boxes and TV would stop working and what ones won’t.

Not really, in my opinion. Simply "Do you have Freeview and are you able to watch BBC One HD on channel 101?". If yes to the first part and no to the second, then you'll be affected.

Most ordinary people won't understand that - they'll hear "can you watch BBC One" and say "Oh yes, I get BBC1, it's fine."

Also they could do it one multiplex at a time, and leave PSB1 and PSB2 unconverted using DVB-T to allow those with older devices some channels.

I don't think the commercial channels on the other multiplexes have any desire to have their already very expensive Freeview carriage reduced in reach any further, unless there is a significant discount offered in recognition of that. If the PSB channels wish to push forward DVB-T2 adoption then let them put their money where their mouth is - convert PSB1 and PSB2 to T2, and flip PSB3 into an unregionalised national DVB-T SD mux with some kind of 'red screen of death' during the local news.

Run that for a limited period until enough people give up on it, and the job is done. At that point, the commercial operators will be far more content with a switchover of their own muxes.

[technologist]

………./If the PSB channels wish to push forward DVB-T2 adoption then let them put their money where their mouth is - convert PSB1 and PSB2 to T2, and flip PSB3 into an unregionalised national DVB-T SD mux with some kind of 'red screen of death' during the local news.

Run that for a limited period until enough people give up on it, and the job is done. At that point, the commercial operators will be far more content with a switchover of their own muxes.

The Vaizey proposal 2011 &12 was to mandate the PSB to emit HD only at 700 MHZ clearance ..
PSB 3 is about to be a regionalised mux …. And you probably only national PSB mux
To carry the remaining PSB in HD and SD daughter channels
currently on the two SD PSB regional muxes.
(If they went HD then the third mux could be UK wide but otherwise it’s probably empty..
that’s the commercial issue ……

It does no one any good to hold the PSBs to dual emission….

[Markymark]

There were plenty of IDTVs which could only handle 2K - Ofcom numbered it as at least 75,000, from major makers like Panasonic, Hitachi, Sony, Toshiba, etc. - and it wasn't just ONdigital boxes as other early set top boxes like the Pace DTVA were also affected. Several million boxes all becoming ewaste overnight. Not good.

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Not sure how you suddenly got from 75k IDTVs to 'several million' in one jump.

There was no need to throw away a 2k IDTV at DSO any more than a 1990s analogue telly, but if your glass is always half empty, then........

[Aplus1]

Not sure how you suddenly got from 75k IDTVs to 'several million' in one jump.

Exactly as I said - 75k IDTVs, and several million set top boxes.

[Markymark]

Not sure how you suddenly got from 75k IDTVs to 'several million' in one jump.

Exactly as I said - 75k IDTVs, and several million set top boxes.

What was the total cumulative number of OnD /ITV Digital subscribers,  and therefore boxes in use when they folded in May 2002?

It wasn't millions, (or else they'd have remained in business). Some of the early Freeview era boxes from 2002 were truly dire, and either died or caught fire before DSO anyway.

I get what you're saying, but I suspect there are significantly more mass market ADSL etc ISP routers, and smart phones with non consumer replacable batteries sitting in landfill right now, than STBs and tellies ?

[Aplus1]

What was the total cumulative number of OnD /ITV Digital subscribers,  and therefore boxes in use when they folded in May 2002?

It wasn't millions, (or else they'd have remained in business). Some of the early Freeview era boxes from 2002 were truly dire, and either died or caught fire before DSO anyway.

I seem to remember a peak of about 1.2 million ONdigital subscribers, but remember that ONdigital was in existence for nearly 4 years and the minimum subscription was only one year. The 'churn' rate was reportedly very high - I seem to remember figures of the order of 20% of subscribers not renewing - so for 1.2 million actives you could easily add on another 500,000 or more lapsed subscribers. Obviously those boxes continued to work quite well to receive the free channels so there's no suggestion that these boxes had magically gone beyond use the moment a subscription was cancelled.

In addition ONdigital shifted a significant number of 'prepaid' set top boxes which were simply never activated and never made it on to the subscription figures. Then add on the non-ONdigital boxes specifically bought for FTA receiption only - Daewoo, Fusion, Labgear, Nokia, Pace, Pioneer, Triax, Samsung - which also all died once the modulation system changed, and I don't think there's any doubt that you are easily past two million if not more.

I had at least four set-top-boxes which became ewaste following DSO, and if DVB-T2 became the default that would do the same for at least four newer sets and boxes that I own. Multiply that by the whole country and that's a very significant amount of equipment being needlessly wasted. (And the whole "you can just plug in a new set top box!" doesn't work if the equipment that no longer works IS a set top box or a PVR.)

The difference with old routers and smartphones is that people can stick those on eBay or give them to friends or charity shops or whatever, and they find a second life because they are still usable. Whereas there is no use whatsoever for digital TV equipment that doesn't pick up TV any more.

[i.h]

I had at least four set-top-boxes which became ewaste following DSO, and if DVB-T2 became the default that would do the same for at least four newer sets and boxes that I own. Multiply that by the whole country and that's a very significant amount of equipment being needlessly wasted. (And the whole "you can just plug in a new set top box!" doesn't work if the equipment that no longer works IS a set top box or a PVR.)

The difference with old routers and smartphones is that people can stick those on eBay or give them to friends or charity shops or whatever, and they find a second life because they are still usable. Whereas there is no use whatsoever for digital TV equipment that doesn't pick up TV any more.

To add a competing anecdote - I stopped using my former ONdigital box a few months after the company went bust. It was a Nokia and so it was ridiculously slow at the best of times, and since Sky had started to do multiroom it was an obvious no brainer to just move to satellite. Split-NIT or the switch to 8k wasn't what did it in for me.

While I do have DVB-T only TVs, I have only rarely used the tuner on it. Most of the time it has been connected to a Freesat PVR, and more recently I set up an old BT TV box for Freeview HD just because I could. Of course these TVs don't have to be e-waste, they can just be augmented with a suitable receiver. I see your point about PVR e-waste, but frankly I'd imagine the vast majority of DVB-T only PVRs have either had their hard drives or power supplies die by now, or the proprietary guide data having been long gone (a problem that also affects a T2 TV that I have - Panasonic with "guide plus" and no way to switch to the generic DVB EPG beyond now/next)

I'd argue that their longevity is actually better than a router or a smartphone, both of which need regular software updates to stay secure, are made obsolete by changes in network technologies, smartphones have batteries with a finite lifespan, and the ISP supplied routers are pretty much universally "rented" to subscribers anyway & will be e-wasted if the ISP deems it not worth refurbishing for a new customer.