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MatijaTelevizija post_id=27467 time= user_id=1795 Wrote:How come subtitles on live shows are VERY behind ? Always wondered ?

Because somebody has to, not "type" as such (I believe there is a sort of "trick" to speed up their production), but generate them based on the speech used. You sometimes have an idea of where its going via script and plan but it only needs Joe Bloggs to make an off-the-cuff remark that was unexpected, and the plan goes out the window until you get back on track.
I remember some subtitling on the BBC channels , and channel 4 , and ( strangely ? ) Nickelodeon being done in Australia by a company called AI Media , often to a degree of bad quality such as characters’ ages being transcribed as 8 when they are in fact 13. Do they still do subtitling ? Why was it even outsourced to Australia anyway ? ?
Live programmes used to be subtitled using a stenograph machine, kind of like the ones used in courts but digital, where one key would give a certain word, two keys together another and so on. These days most live programming is re-read and is synced to the subtitlers voice, like you get in dictation software or on Siri etc.

Red Bee Media were the company that used to subtitle in Australia especially on live programming, and sometimes this went horribly wrong.

Today subtitles on the BBC, C4 and C5 are mainly still produced by Red Bee Media, ITVs are by ITV SignPost (previously the ITFC) and Sky by a number of companies. Intelfax have previously produced subtitles but not sure it they are around anymore. The only ITV region to subtitle in house is Channel Television for local programming.
Steddenm post_id=27514 time= user_id=869 Wrote:Red Bee Media were the company that used to subtitle in Australia especially on live programming, and sometimes this went horribly wrong.
Although the iCarly episode ( premiered in the UK on 24 March 2008 ) with awful subtitles by them was definitely NOT live , but I do realise that they just never proofread as they had to send it to Nick UK most likely with a tight deadline ?

Edit: looking at a recording of the episode , it seems to have been done with voice recognition as if it was live ( solely based on the theme song being transcribed as “ wake up the memories of my nation “ rather than “ wake up the members of my nation “ ) but not actually subtitled in a live manner
Some answers /Comments

Odd charecters ....
Some of them in analogue days were due to errirs/interference/ noise on the teletext Signals,,
but there were some systemic errors due to the fact that the code tables used for the Text
in EBUTech 3264 https://tech.ebu.ch/docs/tech/tech3264.pdf
which is the Subtitling data exchange format (dating from 1989)
was used by both Open (burnt in) and Closed (Teletext) subtitles and can be authored in upto 42 Lanuagues ..
Not I think they all were but there are say 4 nordic German French Spanish and Italian
plus English in widespread use.
is not the G0 charecter set used by Teletext see tables 35 and 36 is sect 15,6 of EN 300 706
https://www.etsi.org/deliver/etsi_i_ets/...06e01p.pdf
,,, which itself has 11 diferent national charecter set variations,
So there coudl be much opportunity for error!!!
for instance the word Sucess was output as suce
and Lesson Le on
this was due in part to the fact that the subtitle file have LC= 08 as German,,,,,
and of course ss is eszett symbol which is in the german Teletext National Charset the same position 7/E
which is the in the Englah charecter set....
..... Itwas a bit more complex as to where in the chain the substiution was done!

Because of such things the BBC Had specfications for the technical parameters of the file
which was checked at various ingest stages..
One of the first automated QC systems (C 1994 say)
And a sepcification for what the Teletext output looked like .
.Including a 4 sec auto repeat and Terminating Headers
and on UK service not used Diacrtical marks by Packet x/26 .
(which were used in the BBC Commercials channels which often had 13 Subtitle Streams
including Greek and Hebrew .. but that another story plus how itwas fitted and timed in the VBI)
key point to note - To make a Standard (ITU/ETSI/SMPTE etc) practical you need to constrain it
by specification so it meets you business needs ,


Styles -
Summerise/Paraphrase ... in the early days the Deaf community were keen on this as of course English
may not been ther first Language and thus reading speed was low.....
as subtitles became more normal the reading speed improved and the deaf commnuty wanted every word
spoken to be subtitled ,,,,,
(which the BBC trys to do all the time but there are times when they deliberately don't see later)
Sound effects - As noted Oracle was into this ... BBC feeling I think tempered by the prevailing Deaf comments
on reading speed did not want to clutter the screen.
The Colours ..... i speak for what BBC felt ....and then what happened ...
it was felt helpful to use a colour per charecter but some colours were not really useable.
so White Yellow Green and Cyan (often called Blue) were used....
The BBC had a automated syetsm for EastEnders which took teh script, parsed it tosee who was in each scene
and worked out the colours that could be used ...hence the announcments at the start...
but then the Sig Tune was shortened and there was not time to annoumce them All..
Also as time went on the visablaity of Cyan was an issue and thus White Yellow and Green were used.
(incidently the French used White for on screen and the Red & Green for Left & Right off screen dialogue)

Something you have not mentioned is on screen postioning .....
In Teletext this soon became a bit hit an miss as the TV sets had diferent Teletext decoders with a different
number of Rows of Text e.g Fastext added a row and both the Left to rught and Up and down could differ
by a pixel or two and line or two.....
The Aim was not to obstruct the mouth or the actsion or any text ,,,
and there also was a feeeling that Left Centre or Right was helpful.....
(there are two ways of doing this - typing in the words and then settinga postion by the Justifcation code JC
in EBU3264 ... as is Left Centre Rght Or adding leading spaces to move the text to the right place.....
the use of the JC is why -if a playout sytem ignores it -all subtites are set very hard left

I will stop now about presentation - and not in this post deal with DVB subtitles,,
but as they are still derived from Teletext signal from playout to Code and Mux
(and the for Sky veiwers emitted)
there are many compromises and implemation specifications which have been lost
and some lesser channels are not even broadcasting the Right Tiresias screenfont..

Now and in the future EBU3264 is being replaced with EBU Timed Text (Or SMPTE TT for Films)
Both of which are based arround IMSC1 TT so that Streaming will use TT to the client PC or TV or phone
As will UHD probalay while legacy system will need translate/code to DVB ST or SMPTE TT for HD
and DVB ST or even Teletext fir SD (except SKy ..who use Teletext for HD as well)


Live Realtime subtitles

These are now mostly done by respeaking - with colour change Punctuation Positioning and Cleardowns
done by mix of verbal and Pressing buttons/Clicking on screen
This obviously takes time so the subtitles are always late ...
BUT the BBC has a system which uses the fact that the Subtles take say 1/2sec to encode
while the video takes 6 secs to encode to get back say 5 secs by careful playing with the DVB PTS.
(this was explictly mentioned in the DVB ST spec back in 1997 ..... )
One thing I got done in the mid 90s was that a news reporter would sign off
"first name , second name for BBC News" which was NOT subtitled (See earlier)
which gained 2 seconds

Going back a long time Oracle used palantype and BBC used Steno .....
But the accuracy needed was far greater than for the Courts or Hansard who could reveiw the words
as they retyped them so good Subtitle Steno operators were rare and Expensive

There still is a place for them
- and also their use of dictionaries for difficult names etc is a key to respeaking as well !!!

Just happening is some very clever AI replacing Respeaking .....
see Red Bee https://www.redbeemedia.com/services/access-services/
they are very good at using context to resolve Homonyms ...
. different spelt words which sound the same/similar and also with dictionnaries for pasrticular contexts ,

This can also be used for prepared subtitles to get the higher quality Speech to text than normal systems
to get the text which then is just cut up or retimed (And may be colured) or tweak the output .....
I see some of the errors in this! but it is very good and quick to prepare,,,,
E.g in BBC four Coventry Cathedral - the latice spire is called a "fleche" the subtitles had "flesh"
(propably no archetectrural context yet!!!!)

Soory for being a bit long ..... and more typos than live subs

Just to correct a bit of history - ITFC (who used to prepare itv etc subtitles) was taken over by Deluxe,
a few years ago itv tendered for the service - the selected company then "got intio financail difficulties"
so itvs Access services team in Newcastle took the whole thing in house...
Saw some subtitles with every first letter of a line of text omitted ?
technologist post_id=27667 time= user_id=1158 Wrote:Just happening is some very clever AI replacing Respeaking .....
see Red Bee https://www.redbeemedia.com/services/access-services/
they are very good at using context to resolve Homonyms ...
. different spelt words which sound the same/similar and also with dictionnaries for pasrticular contexts ,

This can also be used for prepared subtitles to get the higher quality Speech to text than normal systems
to get the text which then is just cut up or retimed (And may be colured) or tweak the output .....
I see some of the errors in this! but it is very good and quick to prepare,,,,
E.g in BBC four Coventry Cathedral - the latice spire is called a "fleche" the subtitles had "flesh"
(propably no archetectrural context yet!!!!)
Red Bee Media owns AI Media , so this has been triyed since at earliest 2008 ? But the subtitles on iCarly were not live , they were appearing line-by-line instead of word-by-word , so the AI system has been tried on recorded content for some reason too ? Mabye Nickelodeon revised the subtitles too as I have not regularly watched this show in more than 5 years
The BBC along with Red Bee developed a system called Subtitle Time Machine, the idea being that the live subtitles bypass the video encoding and are added at the last possible bit of the chain. This helps to sync up the subs and the programme.

White paper here: http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/whp/w...WHP318.pdf

I'm pretty sure The Last Leg used it a few years ago as their subtitles were spot on
Could someone tell me why the subtitles on UKTV appear to be left-justified most of the time and have long blank black spaces to the right?

I have always wondered about that.

TIA.
Inspector Sands post_id=29437 time= user_id=1003 Wrote:The BBC along with Red Bee developed a system called Subtitle Time Machine, the idea being that the live subtitles bypass the video encoding and are added at the last possible bit of the chain. This helps to sync up the subs and the programme.

White paper here: http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/rd/pubs/whp/w...WHP318.pdf

I'm pretty sure The Last Leg used it a few years ago as their subtitles were spot on

As I pointed out earlier in this thread …..
This operation was summised when the,DVB subtitling specification was written
in the late 1990s but the video coder then were say half to a second or so longer tha ST.
Because if this from DTA until Red Bee moved to the Broadcast Centre
…live subtitles were different in Teletext to prepared subtitles that a down stream device
could tell the difference and add or remove delay ….
( it’s which page number was used to terminate the subtitle …… )
just in case we needed to …………
Another different term header to DTA ( digital ) was used in NTA (analogue) so if required
The DVB subs could be widescreen placed …… just in case we needed to…….
As thing turned out subtitle headers were used to send AFD information
as some professional decoders in the regions did not decode them…
johnnyboy post_id=29438 time= user_id=925 Wrote:Could someone tell me why the subtitles on UKTV appear to be left-justified most of the time and have long blank black spaces to the right?

I have always wondered about that.

TIA.
This was constantly there on EMAP channels tooo back in around 2003
johnnyboy post_id=29438 time= user_id=925 Wrote:Could someone tell me why the subtitles on UKTV appear to be left-justified most of the time and have long blank black spaces to the right?

I have always wondered about that.

TIA.

I think since UKTV moved playout away from Red Bee this has been a problem
If any one in SES is looking … it is that the subtitle playout system is not acting
On the justification Code JC at page 13 of EBU tech 3264
https://tech.ebu.ch/docs/tech/tech3264.pdf
This is 00 = take text as it is then 01 = left 10 = centre 11 = right .
This was a style of subtitling authoring which comes in and out of favour
….it’s a lot easier to type in the text and then position it L or C or R
Rather than using leading spaces to move the text along the row.
It also is a good idea if you are working with a proportional font.
( which is NOT what Teletext is ….but DVB is)

So if you type a single character in the first position in the row
You centre it by setting JC =10

BBC style has all subtitles centred so it’s likely JC= 10 on all their files
But the playout does see JC so it sets everything hard left …


Roll on Timed Text ..EBU SMPTE or IMSC …they are all about the same ….
I remember when people were claiming that Tiresias was a bad font despite so much the heavy research put into it ? And I also remember Sky saying to me in an e-mail that they would switch to DVB subtitles eventually and they never ended up did so unless ti was done on sky Q wich I don’t have ??
There was a degree of hype on Tiresias …..
but it did have very clear letter shapes ..look at the “l” for instance …
And there are others ………
So it was very good to excellent but not as brilliant as some said …

Unfortunately Tiresias Screenfont did not make letters into words ….
So the BBC ( SD) subtitles have a lot of hinting and I think two different kernings
Which is why it look different …they also were smaller than ITC regulated subtitles ..
The BBC size was preferred by the deaf /Deaf community as it made them better to read.

Currently it is disgusting that OFCOM has not enforced the use of a good version of the font.
The lack of weight, anti aliasing and the separation of rows all detract from readability
on the non PSB channels ….and each mux look different despite a common mux contractor .

SKY …well their use of WSS not AFD and Teletext not DVB was of great annoyance to the PSB
And the then regulator …..who could not mandate them
One might hope that they jump ahead to emitting Timed Text …….
technologist post_id=29466 time= user_id=1158 Wrote:There was a degree of hype on Tiresias …..
but it did have very clear letter shapes ..look at the “l” for instance …
And there are others ………
So it was very good to excellent but not as brilliant as some said …

Unfortunately Tiresias Screenfont did not make letters into words ….
So the BBC ( SD) subtitles have a lot of hinting and I think two different kernings
Which is why it look different …they also were smaller than ITC regulated subtitles ..
The BBC size was preferred by the deaf /Deaf community as it made them better to read.

Currently it is disgusting that OFCOM has not enforced the use of a good version of the font.
The lack of weight, anti aliasing and the separation of rows all detract from readability
on the non PSB channels ….and each mux look different despite a common mux contractor .

SKY …well their use of WSS not AFD and Teletext not DVB was of great annoyance to the PSB
And the then regulator …..who could not mandate them
One might hope that they jump ahead to emitting Timed Text …….
Early Sky boxes from 1998 ( specifically the ones with the egg logo ) could also only access subtitles by actually selecting pg888. And does anyone have information about access to subtitles ( for Deafs ) on BBC channels in the Benelux ? M yduzch friend cant get Teletext on her tv for any Chanel
technologist post_id=29459 time= user_id=1158 Wrote:
johnnyboy post_id=29438 time= user_id=925 Wrote:Could someone tell me why the subtitles on UKTV appear to be left-justified most of the time and have long blank black spaces to the right?

I have always wondered about that.

TIA.

I think since UKTV moved playout away from Red Bee this has been a problem
If any one in SES is looking … it is that the subtitle playout system is not acting
On the justification Code JC at page 13 of EBU tech 3264
https://tech.ebu.ch/docs/tech/tech3264.pdf
This is 00 = take text as it is then 01 = left 10 = centre 11 = right .
This was a style of subtitling authoring which comes in and out of favour
….it’s a lot easier to type in the text and then position it L or C or R
Rather than using leading spaces to move the text along the row.
It also is a good idea if you are working with a proportional font.
( which is NOT what Teletext is ….but DVB is)

So if you type a single character in the first position in the row
You centre it by setting JC =10

BBC style has all subtitles centred so it’s likely JC= 10 on all their files
But the playout does see JC so it sets everything hard left …


Roll on Timed Text ..EBU SMPTE or IMSC …they are all about the same ….

I love this place and your answer is part of the reason why, technologist.

Thank you.

They need to get you on this and fast Big Grin
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