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+--- Thread: Cue Dots (/showthread.php?tid=512)
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Cue Dots - Neil Jones - 21-07-2021
Surprising to think we haven't had a cue dot thread on TV Live Forum yet.
Last time I started a cue dot discussion I opened it with a Rainbow video. This time will be no exception:
https://youtu.be/lM4A6u0xN4A?t=754
For the benefit of the uninitiated, the cue-dot is the little square "rolling" thing that appears top right on most ITV broadcasts of pre-recorded programmes in the 1970s, 80s and largely the 90s as well, though they began to drop out of favour as automation became the name of the game. They remain in use today primarily on live broadcasts (on the BBC and ITV) and on the odd occasion a double dot happens, usually one for sponsorship bumpers and the latter for adverts.
Poking around on YouTube the other day I came across the above YouTube video which seems to have a elongated presence cue-dot wise. It first appears at 12:34 (video should take you there), but the programme doesn't finish for another two minutes. Other programme examples (including other episodes of Rainbow) seem to be only one minute of cue-dot. This one had a double cue-dot, I presume the one that appears first is what was added to the programme and the other one added "live" for the promotion of the Rainbow paperbacks after the programme.
Was there any standard on pre-recorded programming for how long cue dots should be there? Live programming is always the exception (I remember F1 on ITV put up a cue dot intending to take a break and then something happened in the race that saw everybody dive into the pits and the break didn't happen for best part of another ten minutes or so).
(I'm somewhat ashamed to admit, having been born in the early 1980s that I used to have exactly the same sort of clothing that the two boys are wearing in the VT behind the credits in the video)
Cue Dots - Markymark - 21-07-2021
I think on pre recorded shows they appeared at T-60 secs, and went off at T-5 secs ?
They were used on live shows too. Something like News at Ten that was obviously highly structured were able to keep to the same scheme, because their gallery knew exactly when the break was coming up.
Other stuff like sports coverage you'd see it pop up a couple of mins before the break, because everything was a bit free style.
Some ITV companies (Thames and ATV are two examples) used a cue dot top left in live shows to cue a VT or Telecine clip within the show.
The BBC used cue dots before the start of a live show (studio or OB) as a means for Pres to cue the studio gallery etc
Cue Dots - Inspector Sands - 21-07-2021
I don't think the reduction in use of cue dots was due to increased automation. It was just that the number of places that needed warning about the end of a programme reduced. In the 80s a programme going out on ITV had 15 transmission suites anticipating its end. Even with automation the TX controller still needs to be aware of when a programme is coming to an end.
They still use them for live programmes, but it's usually an invisible dot put into the metadata of the video
The ending of cue dots on the BBC was because of the introduction of digital. With encoding and satellite delays OBs wouldn't have seen their cue until after the dot was sent out.
Cue Dots - aaron_scotland - 21-07-2021
As part of the line up procedure an OB does they measure the delay and then take that into account when turning the invisidots on and off from what I have seen.
Cue Dots - Inspector Sands - 21-07-2021
aaron_scotland post_id=29712 time= user_id=735 Wrote:As part of the line up procedure an OB does they measure the delay and then take that into account when turning the invisidots on and off from what I have seen.That is also done for cueing an OB in over talkback, at least at the BBC. Playout will do a count and the OB runs their titles when they hear their cue. Playout then note how late the programme started and can then tell the OB at what point in the count to run it for real.
So for example the network director will be counting from 10 to 0 but the OB will run their titles at 3
Cue Dots - Transmission - 21-07-2021
Inspector Sands post_id=29715 time= user_id=1003 Wrote:aaron_scotland post_id=29712 time= user_id=735 Wrote:As part of the line up procedure an OB does they measure the delay and then take that into account when turning the invisidots on and off from what I have seen.That is also done for cueing an OB in over talkback, at least at the BBC. Playout will do a count and the OB runs their titles when they hear their cue. Playout then note how late the programme started and can then tell the OB at what point in the count to run it for real.
So for example the network director will be counting from 10 to 0 but the OB will run their titles at 3
The delay test we do where I am (where we also don't use cue dots) is that the PA will do a count from 10-0 and they'll cut to a different camera at 5. So for example if it cuts at 4, that's a one-second delay.
Cue Dots - CameronYoung - 21-07-2021
Does Channel 4 News still use a visible cue dot before the break?
Cue Dots - Bluecortina - 21-07-2021
CameronYoung post_id=29731 time= user_id=1509 Wrote:Does Channel 4 News still use a visible cue dot before the break?
Yes.
Cue Dots - Brekkie - 21-07-2021
I don't really get how they were useful on the football when they were appearing before the length of injury time was confirmed, so could have been with a minute to go or six minutes to go.
Cue Dots - ElMarko - 22-07-2021
Every time this comes up I like to mention that they are used in other countries too. Canada is the one that comes to mind, the CBC had them on Hockey Night in Canada for years when the older regional system of broadcasting games was around. Nowadays with the new system of multi-platform games on digital channels there’s no need to do it.
Also the centralised Rogers/CBC playout helps.
Can’t find any of the examples I used to find on YouTube sadly, but a small white dot came on in the corner of the screen before the break, I wanna say 5 seconds out. You’d only see it on the output from the arena, I think. Not the studio output.
Cue Dots - scottishtv - 23-07-2021
I'm glad someone started this thread, as in the BBC logo thread a video of North West Tonight was posted from the "6 o'clock news hour" era.
In Scotland, we never got the headlines recap at the end of the hour from London - Reporting Scotland just did their own summary of World, UK and Scottish headlines. I was therefore interested to see a cue dot appear on the sting handing back to London (see about 2:57 onwards below).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FoJLHNaqnF0&t=178
I always thought the regions would be timing their shows to near perfection so the opts back to network wouldn't have needed a cue dot to alert the regional galleries when to come back. Was that what the dot was being used for?
I did wonder if the region was instead maybe using the dot as a belt and braces approach to check they had opted back in to the network and the dot disappearing would confirm they were off air? Is that a possibility, or am I just overthinking all of this?!
Cue Dots - Steve in Pudsey - 23-07-2021
I believe in the analogue days BBC North West did insert a cue dot in the overscan area as a visual check that they had successfully opted out. I think it was just belt and braces but I did hear an alternative theory that it indicated when a VBI ident had been added which switched Douglas transmitter from relaying Caldbeck (iirc) to Winter Hill.
BBC Yorkshire use dots to this day when they soft opt, which I think was introduced shortly after moving into the present building when the opt switching failed to operate on several occasions.
Cue Dots - Markymark - 23-07-2021
1988 TVS used a permanent white dot on Hannington for a few weeks, to enable a survey of who was watching what in the overlap area with Rowridge. This was just before TVS launched a sub-opt for news on Hannington that year.
I actually had a survey person knock on my door. I lived in Winchester back then. You could see the telly from the front door, so I flicked between Rowridge and Hannington for him, and said 'take your pick' !
He probably put me down as a weirdo.
I think Central did the same thing on Oxford, just before they launched Central South
Cue Dots - technologist - 23-07-2021
Steve in Pudsey post_id=30088 time= user_id=942 Wrote:I believe in the analogue days BBC North West did insert a cue dot in the overscan area as a visual check that they had successfully opted out. I think it was just belt and braces but I did hear an alternative theory that it indicated when a VBI ident had been added which switched Douglas transmitter from relaying Caldbeck (iirc) to Winter Hill.While I can see why adding a cue dot when you have soft opted does give confidence
BBC Yorkshire use dots to this day when they soft opt, which I think was introduced shortly after moving into the present building when the opt switching failed to operate on several occasions.
that it has happened…..
The switching if Douglas IOM from Caldbeck …. Better sea path….. to Winter Hill …”right Region ”
was done by one line ITS which put the Manchester Ident on when the network feed
was not being output…… Not that they had (soft) opted ……
(i.e. automatically ..no human intervention .. the same in all nations and regions)
What was slightly amusing at the time was that Winter Hill was NICAM equipped , Caldbeck was not
But Manchester Studio was mono… so tne IOM got mono network
and the NICAM light came on for a mono programme ….
As at Douglas the switch was at IF hence a bit of bumping ….
Cue Dots - Spencer - 23-07-2021
Markymark post_id=30091 time= user_id=1078 Wrote:1988 TVS used a permanent white dot on Hannington for a few weeks, to enable a survey of who was watching what in the overlap area with Rowridge. This was just before TVS launched a sub-opt for news on Hannington that year.
I actually had a survey person knock on my door. I lived in Winchester back then. You could see the telly from the front door, so I flicked between Rowridge and Hannington for him, and said 'take your pick' !
He probably put me down as a weirdo.
I think Central did the same thing on Oxford, just before they launched Central South
Yes, I remember seeing the white square on Central as a Ridge Hill viewer. It was used for several periods over the years - sometimes bottom-left, other times bottom-right. I understand sometimes the position would be different depending on which transmitter you were receiving.
My then local paper, the Gloucestershire Echo, ran a story about the ‘mystery white square’ at one point.